The first day of Winter. 12/21/10 Wow. And it's cold here, without snow. Ugh.
I love when Rebecca begins to reveal herself to him.....it sort of makes him a little softer, if even for a few minutes. At least they have something in common - rotten childhoods. I really adore them together and these scenes. She basically opens a door in him that we've never seen opened. Roger projects this with his eyes, as he does with most things. When he tells her about his mother leaving - he is totally raw. He doesn't realize that she's totally getting inside where he's kept things hidden. And look at this time range: By what he's revealed so far, Mom left when he was 9, but he was definitely abused by Peter when he was at least 6, then she died when he was 14, and also, the big event also happened when he was 14, and he tried to kill Peter then as well. Interesting chain of events. She leaves her personal Bible with him, and he almost shows some guilt. Just a smattering.
When she leaves and Nora comes in, he's back to his old vile self. Love how he thumbs ups the pic of her! LOL
FAIL: Nothing.
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Finally a craack in Todds armor . You can tell he is really moved by Rebecca's story, so moved he gives a little. But Todd's survival instincts are so ingrained he immediately falls back and his anger comes out..Then he retreats back into his safe facade,,By the time Rebecca finishes apologizing "Todd" is back. When she decides to leave her own personal bible he does display a little discomfort but he quickly reverts to form and begins his "good" routine when he sees Nora and gives her athumbs up for her engagement..
ReplyDeleteAt least we the viewers are finally seeing bits and pieces of the horror that has been Todd's life up to now...Little do we realize just how horrific it is going to get.
This set of scenes, along with a certain scene you'll be posting later, I think are Roger's magnus opus.
ReplyDelete"...WHAT am I DOING?"
The way he so smoothly transitions from "deceit" to "genuine" throughout this scene in a way that is clear to the viewer is incredible. You know when he's feeding her a line of BS by his intonation and his eyes. Then when she lures him to actually opening up to her, you all of a sudden see him get completely serious. Eventually, it hits him that she "tricked" him into opening up to her and he disgustedly berates himself. "WHAT am I DOING?" This, of course, is followed by anger that is fueled by a number of things as he goes off on Rebecca in frustration.
She apologizes, and he calms down, realizing that he's still in perfect position to execute his original "plan," which is the main reason he's talking to her in the first place. When she offers him her Bible at the end, you see him revert to "genuine" mode for a few seconds, showing genuine guilt over the prospect of accepting something that is so important to her when he's already in the process of using her and she hasn't done anything but try to help him. You see what distinguishes Todd from true sociopaths; he is capable of feeling some degree of empathy, and he has SOME limits.
What's going on? My comment keeps disappearing.
ReplyDeletehmmm I did not delete it, in fact, I just got home, let me go and investigate.
ReplyDeleteAs posted by ToddManning9394:
ReplyDeleteThis set of scenes, along with a certain scene you'll be posting later, I think are Roger's magnus opus.
"...WHAT am I DOING?"
The way he so smoothly transitions from "deceit" to "genuine" throughout this scene in a way that is clear to the viewer is incredible. You know when he's feeding her a line of BS by his intonation and his eyes. Then when she lures him to actually opening up to her, you all of a sudden see him get completely serious. Eventually, it hits him that she "tricked" him into opening up to her and he disgustedly berates himself. "WHAT am I DOING?" This, of course, is followed by anger that is fueled by a number of things as he goes off on Rebecca in frustration.
She apologizes, and he calms down, realizing that he's still in perfect position to execute his original "plan," which is the main reason he's talking to her in the first place. When she offers him her Bible at the end, you see him revert to "genuine" mode for a few seconds, showing genuine guilt over the prospect of accepting something that is so important to her when he's already in the process of using her and she hasn't done anything but try to help him. You see what distinguishes Todd from true sociopaths; he is capable of feeling some degree of empathy, and he has SOME limits.
@TM9394 I love your last paragraph and I totally agree. He's capable of loving and of being sorry, he's not a sociopath, he's a damaged and tortured person. Love how he unfolds for us during these stories.
ReplyDeleteMan, I love this story!!!!!! Ok a few thing popped out at me after watching this, new things I never thought of before which is what I love about watching Todd.....I've watched this too many times to count and something "new" still struck me. First off.....it hit me that along with her love for God, one reason Rebecca is big on the "anyone can be loved" thing is because she never felt she was a a child. So she wants to make sure she give that unconditional love to everyone because she was so lacking it.
ReplyDeleteThe other thing that totally hit me....and it came when Todd said "what am I doing".....the way he said it......I could almost see manipulation at that moment....like he was totally playing up his bad childhood to "play" her......like he knew exactly what he was doing. A big reason that made me think this is the way he talks about his mother leaving him......like she didn't care about him and she was totally at fault.....JUST LIKE REBECCA's parents....working on her sypathy even more. Because we know by this time, Todd knows EXACTLY why his mother left and knew exactly how evil Peter was.....I just found the total blaming of his mother here kind of "fake". Maybe not.....maybe there is a big part of Todd at this point that really did totally blame his mother and the scene is really just as it seems and just like I "saw" it every other time!!!!! LOL But Todd is such a good manipulator here.....I seems to me that he is manipulating even though he might have opened up a little more than he wanted to.
@Juju, yes the Rebecca thing, the never being loved unconditionally, so she HAS to do that for him, because it's what she missed. All makes sense, but also, her religious commitment has some to do with that also.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the Todd idea of using his parents on purpose with her - not in favor of that one. I don't believe he's "fake" about his mother. The thing that proves it is the later scene in the cabin. He's definitely a mess over it. Not using that with her, not that I believe. I watched it carefully about 6 times now. He's raw and he's open. I think your original watch is the right one - he just cannot handle the parent thing and he's damaged. I don't think he is faking about blaming his mother, because he still, at this point, cannot accept all that Peter is, and it' probably has not even been developed yet.
Well, that's what I think. Usually we see this stuff a lot the same! Todd's clearly a wounded animal here, to me. He's trying to keep to the manipulation game and can't totally do it. Rebecca opens something in him that he's not sure how to handle.
I think you have to remember a couple things:
ReplyDelete1. At this point in time, Todd has gone off the deep end. He's reached "rock bottom"...the pain and rage in him that were set off by the rape trial and his eventual conviction run so deep that it's terrifying to watch. It's like he's boiling with ice, if that makes sense. He's not in any kind of mood to be accurate when he's being analytical--at this point in time, Todd is angry at his mother, too. I think in making this observation you're probably thinking about the later scene with Ray where Ray asks him point blank,
"and she left you and went away to marry another man...and you swear up and down that you weren't mad at her?"
"But she LEFT, YOU, BEHIND..."
In those therapy scenes with Ray, Todd's in a completely different mental state. He's able to assess things without his emotional overload getting in the way. He has also had a lot of time to think about things, and now he blames himself for the way everything turned out.
But in these scenes with Rebecca...she's talking to him when the only thing that keeps him going is his seething rage and craving for revenge.
2. The other thing is...the writers were adding to Todd's character as they went along. I don't think they completely knew where they were taking him (or for how long) in late 93. In mid-94, though, they had a much better idea.
Your theory could be correct, I suppose...but one other thing. I think the music is kind of a clue to the audience that you're about to see something sad and real, not just more manipulation. I guess we'll never truly know, unless Malone/Griffith do some REALLY in-depth interview. LOL.
@TM9394 - it's not clear who you are talking to when you say "Your theory could be correct." I stand by mine that he is opened up by Rebecca and that his comments about his parents are REAL and RAW for him....not part of the manipulation, but a window into him, and the sad music confirms this. He is SHOWING US part of him that we've not seen until now. That is my take on it - we're to start, no matter how small, to feel sorry for this guy!
ReplyDeleteSorry, I was addressing that to Bjujubee.
ReplyDeleteI like that you brought up the scene in the cabin. He cynically tells Rebecca that she will leave him..."Just like my mother. Just like my father." You have to believe he was upset with her for leaving him...that's just human nature. In the conversation with Rebecca, he concedes "Dad's got a temper" but then he's still angry that she would "throw their lives in the toilet" (which the dialog implies was actually a slang based on a curse word, which I'm sure we can all figure out...lol...based on Todd's apologizing to Rebecca for his language).
A self-deprecating Todd who had been stripped to bare essentials and was using nostalgia and his love for Rebecca, C.J., and Sara to keep him going was able to let whatever resentment he had towards his mother go.
But a Todd hellbent on revenge was in "blame everyone" mode.
@TRTM9394, I love the whole cabin scene. To me, it is worth all of the "on the road" tedium. Parts of him are hateful toward his mother, that's clear in his actions and decisions, but parts of him also know that she was right to get away, even if she ended up leaving him behind to suffer. He has all this knowledge like a big, fiery ball and cannot do anything with it at this point, except vow to hurt everyone, and at the same time, fall apart.
ReplyDeleteI believe that his resentment toward his mom fades when he faces more of what his father was, and also, when he saves Marty. I think his anger toward his mother was embodied in a lot of his negative actions early on. For me, his saving of Marty makes him cross that road and move toward something better. And, after he saves her, his therapy starts to be shown, he starts to move his focus toward Peter, not totally, but more. As he loves Rebecca more, he starts to be able to accept that what his mother did was right for her, not for him, but for her.
The revenge Todd just makes me think of the MPD story and that Pete was totally in charge. Think of those scenes and how Petish they are (Nora in beach house, Marty in tabernacle, Powell in woods, Rebecca at gun point) but in the cabin, we see so much more Todd.
I am thankful that Roger has created something so worth discussing at 3:00 a.m.!
You know, come to think of it; I kind of think the fact that it was implied Todd swore in front of her was a clue to the audience that he was being sincere. When he was manipulating her, he was trying to come across as innocent as possible. That's why he apologized a couple of seconds later once it hit him what he'd just said in front of her.
ReplyDeleteI feel certain he was sincere in PARTS of the talk with her. 1) He feels sorry for her past 2) He feels guilty that she is leaving her Bible. 3) He feels hurt about his parents and becomes an open wound when speaking to her. The rest of it all is manipulation.
ReplyDeleteI think we pretty much have the same view of that scene. My take:
ReplyDelete*He's at least INTRIGUED and SURPRISED by her story, though I'm not sure he completely is able to empathize just because he's so focused on himself and his own feelings that he isn't too interested in feeling compassion for others.
*Everything from the beginning after the commercial break..."My mom died when I was 14 years old" through his dismissive, "~sigh~ yeah" when Rebecca apologizes to him is sincere. After that, he's back on "Manipulation Plan Street."
*When she offers him her Bible, he feels guilty for a moment.
Reading your prior comment...I never believed Todd literally had DID. I think what Sam said during the airport goodbye was a perfect way to put it, though. All those fake personalities Todd created weren't really fake...they had to come from somewhere. What they were were different parts of him coming out in more concentrated quantities. When Todd did the personalities in the end to himself, it was just his way of heeding Sam's advice in a literal sense, trying to truly figure out who he was.
I wouldn't include Todd holding Rebecca hostage at gun point with those other scenes. That stemmed from him being desperate for a way out and the opportunity presenting itself with him thinking fast. He never would have been able to shoot her in a million years. He hated having to do it, but it was his only choice at the time (or so he thought, anyway).
@TRTM9394 - here's where we part company. First, it was Viki who suggested that the personalities were part of him, not Sam, in cemetary when he was leaving town. He may not have had DID, but he definitely could have had MPD, where the person DOES KNOW the different personalities or is aware of them. Even if not, those parts are there within him.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, he was not "faking" the voices in his head or the different "people" or "parts" of him. Those were real. The way he displayed them were created and fostered to save his hide. However, when we see him on the plane, and they are all there with him, it's confirmation that he has these various "people" within him, as we all do, the parts of us that make us who we are. It's Gestalt theory, and used in therapy all the time to help people heal. His parts, as ours, act and do things to protect us in many ways. Some of them are very injured and do very negative things, but in general they have a positive intent; to protect our core self.
I believe that even in his desperation, just as with the dynamite strapped to him, he is "Pete" or displaying that deeply hurt part of him that has to protect himself. so, when I see him take Rebecca hostage, I still see Pete. I see Todd come through after they are running, of course. also see Todd when Suede bites the bullet. He did not intend that death, and you can see Todd on his face.
During his love affair with Blair, I see Tom so much and occasionally "Rodd," though the whole Italian accent thing was definitely made up by Todd, he says so himself. but the idea of a romantic figure as part of him is NOT made up, neither is the damaged and timid hurt young boy. There, he is the most trusting we've seen him.
In all of these, Roger has made these nuances possible. He's created this character that has all the multiple levels and layers needed to convey something strong and powerful. Roger is the best television actor I can think of. This is why he is so missed, in my opinion.
Well I won't even dive into the DID thing right now. LOL As far as this scene thought with Rebecca.....you girls are probably right and that is how I saw it the first hundred times I watched it!!!!! LOL But it just kinda struck me last nite that he was "playing the poor wounded puppy" story by playing the "my mommy left me too" card.....and while doing that, alot of truths did come out that he didn't expect to come out and so he caught himself. But I do agree that in this scene....we do get the first glimpses of Rebecca actually being able to "touch" Todd......and that is where the greatness starts!!!!!
ReplyDelete@kim
ReplyDeleteThis comment is in reference to your statement about Todd having MPD. I am in full agreement and have maintained all along that Todd is aware of his other personalities and has been for much of his life..His bewilderment when he came in contact with his sister and all her alters stems from the fact that he'd never encountered it in others. Also , Vicki's disease was such that she was not aware of her alters and would lose time when they came out. Todd lived and breathed with his. If he encountered something he didn't want to deal with he would just let Pete take over. While he was in prison , Todd knew he couldn't cope so he sat back and let Pete take charge. When he and Rebecca were discussing his parents and she started telling her story Todd was intrigued . Pete took a back seat because Todd had a need to share some of what he too felt. Of course, Pete quickly came back out to take control because he knew Todd emotions would get the better of him
During the whole DID story, everyone points to Todd's confession to Blair that he faked everything as an admission that the condition wasn't real. I maintain that because Todd was aware of his personalities he easily let go of Tom and put him away because he needed an ally and he needed Starr. In essence By mutual consent one might say Pete and Todd decided to play along with Blair to keep Starr around. Todd manipulated with the help of Pete all those around him during the DID story because he needed to get free of the charges but there were always little scenes when noone was around where Todd himself acknowledged his alters...Take for instance When he was alone in his bedroom looking in the Mirror talking about going to the Opera I loved the little exchange that Pete, Tom and Todd had concerning who would go with Tea. Another similar exchange took place right after he introduced Tea to Rodd and she panicked and he had to let Tom back out. Right after she left. Todd and Rodd discussed what was needed to keep Tea around when Todd stopped and said "Rodd" and Rodd replied "yes" and Todd remarked "you're going to have to do better than that"
The writing was spot on and Roger's performance was seamless I believed in the disease then and still do.